POSTED BY Sheana on Jun 26 under Class, Fat, Feminista, Internet, Politics & Bodies

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1. The Rotund June 26, 2007 12:40 pm

   Oh, gross.

   There is so much wrong with “people of all sizes, from barely large to very large” as though “all” is encompassed by “large” and its varieties.

   And the totally heterosexist slant renders the rest of it unpalatable as well.

   I don’t know that the FA stuff necessarily participates in the objectification and sexualization of fat women but I think that interpretation depends on your experiences with FAs.

2. Meiran June 26, 2007 12:54 pm

   I can, in some small way, understand the “get moving” session. Mostly because I know most of the literature I’ve read tries to stress that fat people excercise too, and if they are active they can be just as healthy. Now on the one hand I recognize that if somebody wants to sit around and do nothing they should be able to and society shouldn’t penalize them. I completly agree with that actually.

   But on the other, I think some inroads are being made by medicine showing that active, healthy people can be large at the same time. And to be honest, I don’t care about my size so much as my health so a workout I would able to do would be welcome knowledge. But that’s because my health is really poor already and I have to do something about it.

   The Old Boys club makes me angry. Extremly angry, actually. Something like that doesn’t have a place at a conference like that.

   As for the “fat admirers” and “what they go through.” I’m debating if I’m downright offended. I never in my life would ever want somebody to date me BECAUSE I’m fat. I could understand if it was something like “I’m usually attracted to girls with brown hair, but I get to know them as people…” But that whole panel seems to be aimed at fetishists.

3. Meowser June 26, 2007 1:28 pm

   To be fair to Kelly Bliss, I don’t think she means “real people” in terms of body size so much as she means it in terms of people who are not super-athletes, the kind of people who’d stay away from most aerobics or yoga classes because of the intimidation factor. I don’t have a problem with this.

   And there is a difference between FAs and fetishists. Please see BStu’s excellent essay about this on Kateharding.net (and also Bstu’s Red No. 3 site).

   That said, I do understand if the whole bag just sounds way too hetero-square (or “binary”) to people. I do know they’ve had many workshops run by LGBTs in the past and as far as I can recall they’ve always been welcoming to everyone. I can’t access the Dimensions site because it’s blocked at work, but certainly if you feel like you’re not being represented there, you should say so — maybe if enough people tell them they feel left out, they’ll do something about it.

4. Stacy Bias June 26, 2007 2:18 pm

   FatGirl Speaks is working on a 2 day conference for 2009 as well. We are definitely not SUPER POLITICAL, in that our focus as an organization is to create personal empowerment for individuals, and not so much to change legislation. Hopefully the people we empower will go on to do that.

5. Sheana June 26, 2007 2:25 pm

   See Stacy, the big difference is that FGS is out and proud about being about individual (and community, in a way) empowerment, and it has very specific inclusive and pro-feminist ideals. I’m TOTALLY cool with having social/empowerment events. I’m just not cool with the fact that NAAFA, who is supposed to be working for political change on more massive scale, devotes basically zero time during their once-a-year conference to political activism. I mean, gardening? Yoga? This is all great, but what about lobbying workshops, campaigning workshops, political brainstorming sessions? Nada, it seems.

   So yeah, please don’t take my snark on NAAFA as a snark on all social/CR events - CR is *incredibly* important, and I actually believe that both the FGS event itself and the ensuing “glow,” if you will, are more politically powerful than anything NAAFA will do this summer.

   And yay for a two-day conference! I hope hope hope I’ll actually be able to attend. Maybe it can be, uh, “dissertation research”

6. withoutscene June 26, 2007 2:28 pm

   Wow, thanks for the schedule because even though I’m doing a workshop, I hadn’t seen it. WTF. This would be disenchanting if there was much enchantment left at all. Like I’ve said, I don’t really have high expectations.

   By the way, I’m the one doing the “Educating the Media” workshop…they shortened my title (which I guess isn’t a big deal), but I’m kind of bothered that they changed my words from “headless fatties” to “headless fat bodies” without my permission or consultation. Are NAAFA people really hurt or offended by the use of the word fatties? Is it just me or is that somehow inappropriate? I love that phrase and thought it was great when I read Charlotte Cooper’s piece.

   They, a fat civl rights organization, change “headless fatties” but do not challenge or change any of these other OBVIOUS problems in the language and formation of these workshops? To me that is disgusting. Maybe they just can’t get people do to good workshops and so they feel they can’t refuse “helpful” people’s offers, but come the fuck on! I would be greatful if they pointed out a way in which I was being exclusionary or using biggoted language.

   If they were MORE oriented toward civil rights and activism and not so focused on the social (which is important but shouldn’t be the focus), they wouldn’t have an schedule that looked like this and they would get offers that were oriented toward activism and civil rights without all the CRAP.

   Fat admirers or people who prefer fat people do meet stigma and scrutiny, but admittedly not nearly in the same way or to the same degree that fat people do themselves. The male heterosexual exclusivity of that workshop tells me they’ve got people who don’t know how to have any other conversation and that is more than bothersome…it’s unacceptable.

   I’m not sure that they have devolved…I think they just haven’t evolved. I can’t remember anyone telling me about a NAAFA conference and noting much more than socializing and (heterosexual) dating.

   That’s all I can muster to say right now. I am bummed, I am sad, I am angry, I am conflicted, and I am ready for change. And I would love to be in on this discussion and mobilization.

7. Sheana June 26, 2007 2:47 pm

   First, Re: Kelly Bliss - I don’t know what her intentions are, but I don’t doubt they weren’t intended maliciously. In fact, I don’t think any of this was intended maliciously - but the fact remains that the thoughtless wording reinforces the same body normativity that oppresses fat folks.

   I just read BStu’s essay (here for anyone interested), and it doesn’t really change my mind on the problematic nature of having an FA “workshop” at NAAFA. I’m afraid I just don’t see how the FA movement is doing much to legitimize fat liberation or fat feminism.

   And to your last point… I don’t care to be involved with Dimensions, in any way, because of my reservations about the objectification, fetisization and feederism I see in some Dimensions documents and forums; that stuff just doesn’t interest me, and I don’t feel the need to be represented there.

   If you’re talking about NAAFA, I think they’re beyond help at this point. Probably the best things most folks could do to advance fat acceptance is save the fifteen dollars on their NAAFA membership to put towards NOLOSE, or even the ISAA, or donate it to BFB or any other fat group.

   And I’m not saying just that NAAFA sounds “hetero-square” - I’m saying that they are specifically enforcing the binary gender system, which certainly isn’t helping any of us, and having queer people lead workshops is simply not enough.

8. Dreama June 26, 2007 5:59 pm

   Every year, as a non-hetero, partnered, female POC, the NAAFA agenda is less and less relevant to me. I frankly cannot begin to fathom what an organization that is meant to be about the furtherance of anti-discrimination principles is doing hosting anything just for men to talk about “men stuff.” If this is a conference for adults and they mean sex, then say it’s a men’s only sex workshop. If that’s not what they mean, then that’s the last straw for me, and I’m done.

9. fatfu June 27, 2007 12:27 am

   1. I think FA’s have everything to do with fat liberation. Their marginalization is a corrollary of the marginalization of the fat body. It’s part of what it means to define fat as “inherently” unacceptable/ugly - the desire for fat bodies becomes defined deviant. I don’t think you can easily disentangle the two oppressions and I think FA’s clearly have a place in the movement.

   2. But yeah NAAFA’s reputation as a dating service for fat straight women just sucks and they can’t seem to help playing into that image. But uh…

   …oh shit I just reread some of those workshops…it is bad. I wouldn’t mind if some of them were like that - it isn’t an academic conference and there has to be a place for people who just want to feel comfortable doing yoga while fat or vent about how their family treats their fat partner. Or whatever. But yeah.

   I think a lot of this is a generational divide - chasm really. NAAFA strikes me as a group who probably haven’t even heard the word “heteronormative.” That’s forgiveable and is a matter of opening up and integrating NAAFA - god knows fat acceptance doesn’t need to pare itself down, we need to embrace and educate each other. But the sourest note of all I hear in this is that they haven’t responded to you. That’s very bad news.

   And as a whole that schedule is painful to read. Not just in being exclusionary and politically dense - but in lacking depth and substance. I’m not going just because I can’t afford the registration+hotel+trip. But it’s not clear that I’ll be missing anything much. (Except maybe “Mr. Wonderful!”)

10. BStu June 27, 2007 11:46 am

    I think FA’s need to be engaged to act on fat liberation. Now, I’m not saying I think that workshop is necessarily going to be doing that. From the description, I kinda suspect it won’t be as I get the impression that FA’s will still be encouraged to be passive and supportive rather than active and engaged. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t something the fat community should be doing.

    FA’s are a unique group in this kind of activism. I mean, in a gay relationship, both partners are gay by definition. Both face the social and cultural difficulties with their sexual orientation. This obviously isn’t necessarily the case with FA’s and fat women. Unless an FA happens to be fat, they aren’t directly affected by fat prejudice. But, they are still affected by it. They aren’t merely potential allies but genuine stakeholders in fat liberation. Their stake is different, but its still very much there. I want to see more FA’s engage by the politics of fat liberation and indeed fat feminism. I’m of the camp who thinks they are effectively one in the same given that the political philosophical origins of fat acceptance come directly from feminism.

    Part of this is redefining what it is to be an FA. Right now its very male-heterocentric and this doesn’t do justice to the community. There are straight female FA’s. There are gay male FA’s. There are lesbian FA’s. The FA identity needs to be broadened.

    Another part is educating FA’s about fat politics. I educated myself, and I’m profoundly grateful. It gave me the tools to accept my own body as it changed and I became fat myself. I cannot begin to say how lucky I feel for that. FA’s should be more than advocates for fat beauty. They need to see the necessity of advocating for fat equality as well. They need to understand the issues beyond the frequent wallowing in “what they go through”. Its a worthwhile effort, but one which NAAFA’s past makes me feel they simply aren’t up to doing it right.

11. Carla June 28, 2007 6:20 pm

    Sheana –

    I wasn’t going to respond here, but apparently I’ve changed my mind. I will attempt to set aside the personal insult I feel from your tone and focus on a little fact-checking.

    - Meowser is correct. The Real People Workout ™ is Kelly’s name for her workout that allows people of any size and mobility level to be active. Not a “skinny chicks aren’t real women” thing at all.

    - [I’d be curious to hear just who is included in their idea of “BBW dating in the real world” - dykes?] You mean like the Co-Chair of the Board? Yep. [Transwomen?] Yep. [Poor and working-class women?] Them, too. [Those interested in non-monogamous or poly relationships?] Sure – we had a Poly and Fat workshop at the 2005 convention in San Mateo. I’d have it again in a heartbeat, but the presenter doesn’t come to the conventions that aren’t on the West coast. We had a workshop on the intersection of fatness and transgender issues last year, but that wasn’t about dating as much as a discussion of the ways both populations transgress gender norms.

    - [Ah, apparently NAAFA is a dating service as WELL as the premiere fat rights organization in the U.S. ] Nope, no hook-up service, just a reminder for women to be safe and sane about their relationships and to not put up with crap from a partner because they think they can’t do any better.

    - The Fat Admirer workshop is open to any and all genders and orientations. Did you see a male pronoun in that description that I missed?

    - Fat women can sexualize themselves, thanks. We neither mandate nor track who they share that sexuality with.

    - The Gentlemen’s Club was created in response to complaints from those attendees who felt it was unfair that so many of the workshops were women only, and that there was no place for large men, regardless of their preference. The description is a light-hearted tweak (at least in intention if not in reception) of the kind of male-only atmosphere you seem to think is actually happening. It’s a conference room, not a locker room. We actually take the opportunity to counteract some of the usual competitive macho bullshit that can happen at the dances. You may, perhaps, be reading a little this one a little too closely. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    - [None (or very little) of their conference content this summer is directly relevant to feminists, queers, transfolk, people of color, or the working classes (and a whole host of other folks, I’m sure).] Depends – are they fat? Or are they offended by fat discrimination? Or do they need a little oasis where the way their body looks isn’t judged? Those are our primary aims – we have neither the time nor the resources to take on the white heterosexual patriarchal upper-class hegemony. For that, we’d need a two-week convention.

    NAAFA is only as good, activist, queer, ethnic, class-sensitive, [insert your favorite positive adjective here] as the people who have committed themselves to work for it. You want lobbying workshops, campaigning workshops, political brainstorming sessions? Motivate your fat, feminist, queer ass to lead one. We had several of them at the San Mateo convention. The people who did them are either not coming this year, are burned out from giving their all and getting only criticism in return, are dealing with serious injury or illness in the family, or are taking up the slack for someone else who is experiencing any of the above. We need new blood. Are you it?

12. Sheana June 28, 2007 6:34 pm

    I’m sick of feminists being told that we’re reading “too much into things” when we criticize sexism. That description of the boys’ club is about the most sexist thing I’ve come across in weeks.

    You say you don’t have the time or resources to take on the “white heterosexual patriarchal upper-class hegemony.” There’s your problem - you assume that the white, heterosexual, patriarchal upper-class hegemony isn’t to be found in NAAFA. I, and many of the new (and even the disillusioned older) generation of fat activists disagree. I think that NAAFA has been demonstrably sexist, heterocentric, classist and racist.

    Furthermore, I don’t want to be associated with an organization that has as tarnished a history as NAAFA. And my fat, feminist, queer working-class ass can’t fucking afford to fly to the middle of the country and pay upwards of a thousand dollars for lodging, food, NAAFA membership and the conference fees. And what’s more, the organization’s politics are so regressive that I wouldn’t even if I could.

    It’s old, old news to imply that we’re with you or we’re against you, or that blogging isn’t political activism, or that critique isn’t valid. For that reason, I’ll take my “new blood” elsewhere.

    And, to BStu, I truly appreciate your candor - you’ve genuinely inspired me to rethink some things. I’m still not sure FA’s have a center place in the fat rights movement, but I can look at the community in a new light (and I appreciate your contributions as a fellow feminist!).

13. Carla June 28, 2007 6:50 pm

    Okay. Fine by me. Good luck in however you choose to manifest your beliefs. And may everything you put out into the world return to you threefold.

14. The Rotund June 28, 2007 7:10 pm

    Carla, that’s a nasty little bit of wishing Sheana ill. Because it’s obvious you DO have some hurt feelings because she criticized your line up. I understand the hurt feelings but I don’t understand why you would not then take this critique and make your programming BETTER the next time instead of dismissing it.

    Sheana, meanwhile, when confronted with a challenge to her original views on FAs was willing to discuss things with people who hold other views and, indeed, come to a new understanding of things - though she doesn’t entirely agree with BStu and that is fine because there is so much room for so many different opinions within fat activism. That just doesn’t seem true, the more I read from NAAFA members, in NAAFA.

15. BStu June 28, 2007 8:16 pm

    Actually, Sheena, I very much agree with you that FA’s should probably not have a central role in Fat Acceptance. At least not to the degree that they have. NAAFA’s origins are, indeed, as an FA support group and its been confused about its mission ever since. Well, ever since the women of the Fat Underground were able to successfully take the organization into their direction including getting it to change its name. (Used to be National Association to Aid Fat Americans if anyone was curious). While FA’s should be engaged with fat acceptance, I’m not exceptionally comfortable with FA’s leading the movement and I think that’s a very fair historical criticism of NAAFA and may well still very much apply.

    To that end, Carla, I think it would be foolish to imply that within institutional fat acceptance the term FA isn’t overwhelming exclusive to heterosexual males? The workshop may not be gender exclusive specifically, but you know as well as I do that non-heterosexual male FA’s struggle to feel a home in institutional fat acceptance. That doesn’t say that some don’t find a home, but you’re really not respecting the problem here. Lip service or exceptions isn’t changing the perception many still have, so if other FA’s are welcome more needs to be done to communicate that to them.

    Sadly this is another NAAFA’s “Well, you fix it” mentality. Do you not understand that when people feel alienated and rejected by an organization that they are in no position to fix it themselves? That with so many people feeling this way about NAAFA in such a small community of fat acceptance aware individuals is a problem NAAFA needs to respond to with something more than “Stop your whining” and “You fix it”?

    Some of Sheena’s complaints may have justified a rebuttal, but that your rebuttal was filled with such scorn and mocking genuinely validates her core points. As I’ve seen it, NAAFA treats their potential allies with far less respect than some of their most hostile critics. This is a profoundly dysfunctional state of affairs.

16. Carla June 28, 2007 8:40 pm

    I didn’t wish her ill. I wished that what she puts out there comes back to her. I live by that credo myself (the Wiccan Rede, if you’re interested) - I think it’s important for everyone to be aware of what the energy they put out into the world. It’s up to the individual what they put out there. I truly hope that whatever she chooses to do with her energy is fulfilling for her and positive for the world.

    I haven’t decided for sure that I’m going to organize the convention again next year. If I do, and I have the presenters to do it, I may incorporate some of her ideas. Although, apparently the people who seem to be clamoring for those changes have already written NAAFA off, so I’m not sure if anyone will be there who would be interested in them.

    Yep, my feelings were hurt. I’ll admit to that. That’s what happens when you throw snarky rhetoric around - it gets on people. Perhaps Sheana would be willing to listen to me about the challenges and issues we’re dealing with and might see that I’m under a fuck of a lot of pressure right now. Perhaps she wouldn’t care. I don’t know. I already see the value in some of her points - I went to a liberal arts college and got a thorough grounding in women’s studies and gender politics (although it *was* 16 years ago - does that disqualify me as a feminist? Do I need a booster shot?) I am one person and everything I do has to be approved by a committee - there’s only so much I can do. At any given time I’ve got 40 different voices telling me what NAAFA should be and what’s wrong with our style or expression, and most of the voices don’t agree with each other. I can’t make everyone happy, no matter how much I try, and I’m tired of trying. That is where I’m coming from.

    I’m willing to discuss - in 3 weeks after the convention is over and I’ve gotten more than 4 hours of sleep a night. Or, if you’re not interested, I can just not come back. I can go either way.

17. The Rotund June 29, 2007 6:09 am

    I think it’s a discussion worth continuing, I just think we are going to have to find a common language for having that conversation - because I genuinely don’t believe Sheana was intending to be snarky - I have SEEN her be snarky. *grin*

    I have the best mental image of a feminist booster shot.

18. Phyllis June 29, 2007 5:09 pm

    I find it very interesting that majority of those who complain about NAAFA and what it does or doesn’t do, whose needs it meets or doesn’t meet are people who have NEVER attended a convention. How does one complain about something one has never experienced first hand?

    NAAFA has a Board of directors made of 1 man and 6 women. They are Black, White, heterosexual and homosexual and come from various regions of the United States and Canada. They my not nobe the most diverse group possible, but there is diversity.

    As a teenager during the 60’s when the Civil Rights movement was at its high point, one thing I remember is if one wants change, one needs to work for it. Further, if you don’t like what an organization is doing, join it and work from within to make the necessary changes. Wouldn’t that be more proactive that complaining without full knowledge of that which you are making complaints?

    By the way, each year the convention is held in a different region of the United States. Sheana, has it never been in an area to which you are willing to travel? You need not stay for the entire week, you can get a weekend package which would allow you to save money and still see first hand what happens at convention and meet the people against whom you have made your complaints.

19. Sheana June 29, 2007 5:23 pm

    I don’t need to attend a weight-loss meeting to know that it has serious problems - I can tell that from the stories I hear from people who have been involved in the past, and from the literature they release, and the public image they cultivate. I’ve seen some remarkable tunnel-vision in the responses to critiques of NAAFA, saying that if we don’t join NAAFA then we aren’t doing anything. My blog is activism, and my teaching is activism, and I’m working with others to forward the cause of fat rights. Just because I’m not joining your organization doesn’t mean that a) I’m doing nothing, and b) I have no right to criticize it.

    And lastly, I’d like to speak to the overwhelming classism in your last statement. “Sheana, has it never been in an area to which you are willing to travel? You need not stay an entire week.” Perhaps, for you, the plane ticket, the registration, food, the hotel (even for a three-day weekend) and other assorted costs of traveling doesn’t constitute a significant expenditure. As a student who has always, until very recently, lived in extreme poverty, I can say that it is not a matter of “being willing” to travel, it is a matter of having the resources. Perhaps if by some miraculous stroke I had the finances to travel to NAAFA and I didn’t feel that some of the workshops were heterosexist and objectified women, I’d attend. I am not, however, willing to shell out an amount of money that would essentially make me homeless to go to a conference where I will feel objectified and have to encounter persistent (hetero)sexism.

    We are working to do something different in the fat rights movement. I don’t think NAAFA needs to cease to exist; I just think there needs to be another viable alternative that is explicitly, specifically dedicated to fat rights. When we get going, you’re more than welcome to join us.

20. Carla June 29, 2007 11:14 pm

    Oh. My. Dog.

    The penny just dropped as I was watching Keith Olbermann (yes, that is what I do at 2 am, watch Countdown and configure reports. Oh the glamour…) and he referred to golfers getting lap dances from strippers from a local “Gentlemen’s Club”. That’s what it sounds like, isn’t it? That’s what you read when you read the schedule. I honestly never…to me, that means leather armchairs, expensive scotch, and idiotic nicknames — more Jeeves & Wooster than Flashdance. Still a bastion of patriarchy, to be sure, but an ironic one. Luckily the program hasn’t gone to the printer’s yet - still time to change it into something less icky. Sorry about the misunderstanding on that point.

21. Kara June 30, 2007 5:08 am

    I always find it interesting that a lot of people forget those involved in the size acceptance movement (new or twenty years ago) are ALL on the same TEAM……….we are fat or thin, male or female, transgender, gay or straight, all colors and all sizes. Sometimes I feel like the “Mother Bountiful” harping repeatedly, “Can’t we all get along and move toward acceptance together????” My credo in life is from Mother Teresa, “If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.”

22. EP July 1, 2007 10:46 am

    Terribly interesting read, it makes me wonder if you would be offended if I was to benefit from your activism in any way. If I was not fat enough, gay enough, feminist enough or poor enough to fit into your vision, and I inadvertently reap a minute amount of strength or ease of life from you efforts, would I become the oppressor?

23. William July 6, 2007 6:25 pm

    Hi

    I have found this to be a great conversation.

    I agree with the point made of the exclusion of the Fat GLBTL community. I also feel that Fat Men are on the outside of this community. Notice that the only time you see BHM mentioned is a party in the Gentlemen’s Club to talk about Guy Stuff. I would feel better if there was also more instances of BHM talking about “Fat Stuff”. I also wonder why the writer of the schedule felt the need to differentiate between BHMs and FAs? Wouldn’t the general use of the word Men cover both groups? In closing once again I see nothing offered at the NAAFA Convention for Fat Men that would merit the cost of this convention.

    Thanks
    William

24. William July 6, 2007 9:09 pm

    Hi

    Also why does NAAFA assume that FAs are men. I have met Women who like Fat Men, Fat Women and both Fat Men and Women.

    William

The criticisms of my students would serve as a good warning to visitors of Seeworthy: she talks too fast, she's too hard on us, she assigns too much work, and you have to be a dyke to get a good grade. In other words, I'm a big, fat, queer, feminist meanie, and I am totally out to get you. Graaagh!